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Post by joychica on Mar 18, 2005 17:05:45 GMT -5
Here's my pondering question for the day... Anyone familiar with the Terri Schiavo case down here in Florida? It's all over MSNBC, CNN, Fox News and every other news channel...and since the case is near Tampa we get it here almost 24/7 when they aren't talking about the new little girl who is missing... Anyways brief summary...Terri Schiavo became severly brain damaged 15 years ago...she does not live on life support but needs a feeding tube to stay alive...Her husband has been petitioning since 1998 to have her feeding tube removed stating that she would not want this...her parents have been battling with him...The case has gone through Florida courts and then the Federal Courts said that this was a Florida case and must stay in the Florida system...Now there is nowhere for the parents to petition to have the tube reinstated...And then today they removed her feeding tube...and now it's just a matter of time, days, weeks until she dies... Where do you sit on the fence? I'm perched right in the middle... Do you feel that the courts have a right to get involved? This situation has really got my brain going...and then fighting with itself tbo.com for more info Laura
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Post by PennyRobinson on Mar 18, 2005 20:08:09 GMT -5
Yes I've kept up with it.
I don't know which is worse, removing the feeding tube and her slowly starving to death...can she feel pain? Do they know?
Or living out the rest of her days in practically a vegative state.
I don't know if I could make a decision if it were a loved one, to have their only source of survival cut off and wonder if they are in pain as they die. I don't think I could do that.
It's not the same as dealing with Dr. Kouvorcian (sp?) is it? A shot and you go to sleep and never wake up.
This woman is slowly going to starve.
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BUK
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Post by BUK on Mar 19, 2005 7:21:47 GMT -5
www.nationalreview.com/comment/johansen200503160848.aspIt's a pretty good analysis and a bunch of background info. I also heard on the radio a woman who was "non-responsive" for 72 days, in critical condition from a massive stroke, doctors telling her husband that she has a one in a million chance for survival, that she should be left to die. Her husband refused to sanction her starvation. She had to be stomach-fed directly with a tube through her abdomin, and they neglected to locally anesthetize her as they did the proceedure, both installing and eventually due to other complications, removing it again. She was without nourishment for eight days and in excruciating pain. Her husband refused to give up and spent massive time with her, being her advocate. He saw signs of awareness, which the hospital refused to acknowledge. Now we know all this about the lack of anesthisia because THIS WOMAN WAS AWAKE INSIDE THE WHOLE TIME! She could hear and feel, but could not respond. She has made a full recovery and now lectures on the topic. I know that the TS case is different, but accoring to the parents, they bring her comfort and are willing to provide it. I really do believe it is a bigger issue at stake: the culture of death vs the culture of life. We are in the process of a similar situation, dealing with a DNR order for my Father-in-law. It is tough stuff. It's very important to KNOW where you are going after you die, and I realize this rubs people the wrong way, but it changes your perspective on the "why" you do what you do. I am going to write further on this subject later, when it is not so hectic and I can gather my thoughts. As I participate in this good man's exit from life, I am honored to have known him. I am priviledged to be able to re-inforce God's plan for him, now and later. As crushing as it is to the family, he's 87 and by most measure he has had a great run. (for crap's sake, with all the self inflicted abuse I endured, I'll probably never make 87) But, I realize that to he and his wife, it's never enough. As always, it seems that It's best that we keep our sights on God, and all the rest will be taken care of. For my wife and her family, it is my privilege and honor to care for her mom and dad. As hard as it is to have every aspect of our lives disrupted by the motional weight and physical weariness of it all, i look at it as a joy to serve in this capacity. Not because I am such a great guy, because previously I would have said, "I'm out of here. It's your family. You deal with it!" Given the opportunity, by nature, I'm mostly a selfish scumbag ( sadly, I've got a lifetime of evidence to support it) . But since winning Jesus' "Extreme Makeover" treatment for my heart mind and soul, things have changed. It's not ALL ABOUT ME! (even though I still try to make it so at times.) I now have a heart for the helpless, so I see how Terri's folks must feel. As a society, we really need to cherish life, at all levels. Sorry for the ill thought out rant. I'm not too good on the fly, and time is short lately. I enjoy reading about y'all. Penny I do read every day, and I know that you have been through a lot lately. I've got stories that relate. One day.... Happy belated b'day. You'll always be a young chick to me!
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Post by dotdot on Mar 19, 2005 13:53:43 GMT -5
I think a stand has to be taken. you have to think, if I was in that position, would i want to die like that? the husband claims that is what she wants, to have the tube removed, but it seems more conveinient for him than compassionate for her.
I've lately been hearing about the 'culture of death', which includes abortion, euthanasia, suicide, murder, and the like. we look at the evil reigns of terror of a hitler or sadaam yet we tolerate, condone, legalize, glamorize these methods which yield the same result as these regimes did.
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Post by kcbent on Mar 19, 2005 16:45:32 GMT -5
I think cases like this should make us step back and think about what we would want if we were in this position. As hard as that is to do, we should discuss it with our loved ones. There's no way to cover every possibility, but the more things are discussed, the easier it is for the person that has to make a tough decision.
My Mom had to try to decide what my father would have wanted in a much simpler situation from this one. In the end, the outcome wouldn't have changed, but watching her suffer like that was probably the hardest thing I've ever had to do. She's never recovered from it.
If you're going to talk about things like this with your loved one, you should include funeral arrangements. When my father died, we had a small service graveside for family and a few close friends. I realized then that this gave us a way to say goodbye, etc. but we didn't have to deal with a whole lot of other people. It was all my mother could have handled at the time. That's what I want and I've discussed it with everyone and put it in writing. It was creepy to do, but hopefully it makes it easier for my family somewhere down the road. Yes, this is morbid to think about, but it can sure make it easier for the people around you when the time comes.
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Post by PintoMusic on Mar 21, 2005 13:27:57 GMT -5
I think cases like this should make us step back and think about what we would want if we were in this position. As hard as that is to do, we should discuss it with our loved ones. I think it was an even harder discussion to have before this issue came to this current climax. I think that families will be finding it easier to discuss now. I had been avoiding discussing this whole issue like the plague (which is why I hadn't responded to this thread until now) but then my wife and I had an informal chat about it this morning. I know that, if it were me, I would not want to be forced to live just to stroke someone else's conscience. Some people may not see it that way... to each their own.
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Post by joychica on Mar 21, 2005 14:00:53 GMT -5
All valid points which makes this situation so difficult...
It really makes you see how important it is to have a living will and to make sure all family members know what you would want done in a situation like this...
I feel for both parties...the husband obviously feels that his wife would not want to live like this and he's been trying to follow her wishes...The parents do agree and feel that they know her better and she would want to live like this...this is why we have the legislature and they determine that a spouse has the right to make the decision...
No matter how I feel about having somone's feeding tube removed I feel that the husband does have the right to make the decision, no matter the decision.
Unfortunately families can turn ugly in times of tragedy (kinda like how mine is at the moment) and now you have a husband battling with the in-laws...They've been taking it to court but at what point do we just say "Stop"? Why are we getting the Congress involved in a family matter? Why does it have to get so out of control?
On the other hand, I don't know what I would want to happen if I was Terri Shiavo...but I don't think it's right now just let someone starve to death either and that's basically what's happening, but if Terri said "I would never want to be on a ventilator or have to be fed through tubes to live" Then you must grant her wishes.
Getting the government into this case may change the way situations like this in the future are handled...and we already know that the government likes to control everything (cable tv anyone?) I don't want them to tell me or a family member how they should be treated medically in a situation like this...Just like it's not right for the government to tell all women that they can't have an abortion...every case is different and it needs to be treated differently...
Bring this case back to Florida courts and let the decision stand...Enough is enough...
BUK you are totally right about people waking up years and years after they fall into a coma or vegatative state...Did anyone watch the ER episode with Cynthia Nixon when she had a stroke and she thought she was talking to the doctors but she wasn't? She could hear and see everything and was just screaming and screaming but no one could hear? The medical field just isn't an exact science yet to know what exactly is going on inside of these people when they are in these conditions...And that makes me want them to keep her alive, just in case...But since I work in Social Services I'm very aware that there is no funding whatsoever for disabled individuals, especially in the state of Florida...so what happens when Mom and Dad pass away and she's still in this condition? There won't be anyone left to take care of her...
Its a difficult situation on all fronts...but I'm glad it's got people thinking...every day in our life and every decision we have tomake or every story we hear about someone else we must take something away from it in order for us to grow...
Laura
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Post by dotdot on Mar 21, 2005 18:05:01 GMT -5
We are in the process of a similar situation, dealing with a DNR order for my Father-in-law. It is tough stuff. It's very important to KNOW where you are going after you die, and I realize this rubs people the wrong way, but it changes your perspective on the "why" you do what you do. its the 'life after death' issue, the uncertainty of it, and especially if you take the stance that there is. some are of the belief the soul never dies, where one truly lives. so although there is a physical 'death', the spirit lives on. and the thought of existence, what other people see vs. what the person in question truly experiences. how do we really know, without the mode of communication we are normally accustomed to? can we truly put someone out of their supposed 'misery'? how do we really know if it won't possibly lead to more? not only the person's, but our own? with life, at least there is a measure of remedy. in death, there is a measure of finality.
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Post by Rpeacefuld on Mar 21, 2005 18:06:16 GMT -5
Being a mother to a teenaged son who is very simular to Teri, he is fed via feeding tube, mentally is a 10 month old and is now cared for in a facility geared for his medical needs. I am totally for Teri's parents. She is NOT a vegetable she is responsive and reacts to pain stimuli. I hope there is a a hell just for her husband, and I hope he starves to death, the bastard.
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BUK
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Post by BUK on Mar 22, 2005 7:40:15 GMT -5
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Post by PintoMusic on Mar 22, 2005 13:51:15 GMT -5
Being a mother to a teenaged son who is very simular to Teri, he is fed via feeding tube, mentally is a 10 month old and is now cared for in a facility geared for his medical needs. I am totally for Teri's parents. She is NOT a vegetable she is responsive and reacts to pain stimuli. Robin... you are a very strong woman and I admire you for your commitment to your son and family. It appears the politics of this issue have got a bit sticky. It turns out that Bush - who is championing Terri Schiavo's right to life - passed a law while the governor of Texas that allowed medical personnel to withdraw life support if a further medical attention was determined to be futile. That law of his saw action last week when a seriously ill 6-month old African-American child in Texas was pulled from life-support against his mother's wishes. Here are some articles: msnbc.msn.com/id/7190468
story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2270&e=4&u=/krwashbureau/20050322/ts_krwashbureau/_bc_braindamagedwoman_bush_wa_1America has a long way to go on this one - both legally and morally. In the meantime, the lesson for those who can speak for themselves is to assert now how they would want to be handled should they ever be in a condition similar to that of Terri Schiavo. I know it's a tough subject but the recent media coverage has brought relevance to the discussion - which I hope would make it easier to talk about.
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BUK
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Post by BUK on Mar 23, 2005 5:51:09 GMT -5
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Post by Bunny on Mar 24, 2005 22:11:47 GMT -5
they've been doing updates every morning on the news for the past week
as far as I see, both sides are being selfish, which is sad, cuz Ms. Schiavo can't actually speak for herself, leaving both sides to say what they want to believe she would say
All I know is, and my family knows this too, that I would never want to be fed through my belly button (or lack thereof), or hooked up to a ventilator or anything of the sort
If my brain can't control my body, then I'm not alive mentally or physically. It would only be a waste of their emotions, time and energy.
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Ashlee
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Post by Ashlee on Mar 25, 2005 14:08:37 GMT -5
OK this is a touchy subject that I've hardly discussed it with anybody. Of course I go by what the news has shown and the points of the parties. Not everything is known and shown, nor can emotions be replicated, but only envoked by information.
I mostly side with the Husband. a) I think it is his choice to make, as 'next of kin' (which he most likley is [Iam not certain]) b)I would never want to live that way for more than 6 months IF there was NO chance of recovery c)I think a 'life' is more than 'survival'. If your JUST living and breathing (with assistance) in a hospital room, its no more than being in jail, IF NOT WORSE. d)YES its hard for the family to let go, but why drag on a horrific incident, where the person is permanantly 'injured'. You've had the chance to say goodbye, most people dont get that option in somecases of accidents & misfortunes.
I'll stop there.
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Post by Bunny on Mar 25, 2005 19:30:07 GMT -5
OK this is a touchy subject that I've hardly discussed it with anybody. Of course I go by what the news has shown and the points of the parties. Not everything is known and shown, nor can emotions be replicated, but only envoked by information. c)I think a 'life' is more than 'survival'. If your JUST living and breathing (with assistance) in a hospital room, its no more than being in jail, IF NOT WORSE. d)YES its hard for the family to let go, but why drag on a horrific incident, where the person is permanantly 'injured'. You've had the chance to say goodbye, most people dont get that option in somecases of accidents & misfortunes. I definitely agree with this Ashlee this entire mess, coupled with my accident on Christmas, has me planning out a living will more than ever. I would never want any of my family to have to fight over something like that, which is why a living will is the one thing everyone should have even though it would be hard for anyone's family to let someone they love die, if they knew for sure that's what the person wanted, it would be far easier for them to move on. I personally think that after 15 years, Ms. Shiavo's family should have at least come to term with the situation, and I think for 15 years, her husband has been living the first day without his wife over and over again.
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